Curse

Ferminator · Oct 26, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Anet needs to give us more bang for our buck. It sucks when you finally finish shards of orr in hm h/h and you get a daimond. But with sc (perma or 600) you can do it quickly and easily until you get the drop you want. Choose wisely, the path to take

Edit: Why would you even bother bringing lod when you get 100g from the chest and waste a skill slot? (it isnt even included in sc's)

Targren · Oct 26, 2009, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

...because they would be able to do it and enjoy it at the same time.

No, they won't. Even if you remove every single gimmick build from the game, Balanceway will never, ever, EVER not suck for elite areas.

DoA already tells us what happens when they do things your way.

upier · Oct 26, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There's also a problem of game design:

3) It shouldn't be possible to stay alive without serious risk of death. God modes are bad. God mode is fine if it takes a great deal of skill to pull off and isn't 100% reliable. But being able to pass content over and over again with more or less 100% accuracy given sufficient skill is bad. That undesirably turns the game into Grind Wars, rewarding he who grinds the content the most times.

The issue is that Grind Wars didn't happen because of God mode.
God mode was a RESPONSE to the decision to turn GuildW into GrindW. So even if you remove God mode, you will STILL be left with Grind Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That said, poor people and new players will be in extremely sorry shape. There are two arguments for not dumping tons of ectos into the system - it distorts the very high end markets in undesirable ways and new players will have it extremely rough when you turn the spigot off. The latter argument, however, is not sufficient excuse to leave SF as it stands. Man up, admit the mistake, fix SF, and find ways to help noobs such as increasing the rewards for the one-shot quests noobs do.

Bolded the important part. What happens if the bolded part is not done?
And considering the massive negative impact if this does not happen, shouldn't we demand this change BEFORE trashing SF?

The problem with your suggestion is that IF additional tasks (on top of trashing SF!) are executed the game WILL become better for everyone. On the other hand, if additional tasks are NOT executed the game WILL be worse for a bigger number of players that are currently plagued by the game.
And it's exactly this reason why we should demand these additional tasks to be performed BEFORE the SF nerf - because if they do not happen, leaving SF IS the lesser evil.
SF does less damage to the game in it's current state than not having SF would do.

QueenofDeath · Oct 26, 2009, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Totally disagree SF needs to go and noobs need to learn to earn their stuff just like the rest of of did. I'm tired of all these QQ threads about noobs needing to be hand fed and diapers changed for the betterment of the game. Buncha bs I worked hard for my stuff and everybody behind me should do so as well. Even harder would be fine by me.

)

qvtkc · Oct 26, 2009, 02:12 PM // 14:12

I don't care about farming, or about speed clears. What I mean is, I don't care if it stays, and I wouldn't mind if it goes.

I do care about running things. It should be made impossible, and SF is just a small part of that, but at least it's a start.

I also care about how the game is played. Tanking is ridiculous but should still demand some skill. With SF you need almost no skill to tank, yet you are completely invulnerable.

Oh and, if they nerf SF, they need to really crush it. Not just make things take longer, but actually make it a worse choice. Otherwise nothing will change, things will be played the same way just slower and more boring.

Test Me · Oct 26, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Yes it will change a lott, to start people looking for "normal" teams will be able to get a group again.

Secondly it will make people go back to actually playing the game,SF is invinsible plain and simple and takes no skill,no matter what the people that want to defend SF say about it reguiring skill and how you can stil die and junk like that.

Isn't it funny that the exact same was said about Ursan and DoA? And what happened to DoA? Oh right, no one knows what DoA is anymore...

[sarcasm]Of course all things will turn back to being the nice idyllic "normal" pug-way we all loved in the beginning of GW. Of course. If only they would nerf SF. If only! *sigh*[/sarcasm]

Lord Hares · Oct 26, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Nerf SF
ex pro farmer will be happy cause they have stacks of ectos and price will go up
casual farmer will cry and prolly rage cause they can't do shXXt anymore
thoose who don't farm don't care

Anyway, as usual, ANET is just 1-2 year late

QueenofDeath · Oct 26, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I don't care about farming, or about speed clears. What I mean is, I don't care if it stays, and I wouldn't mind if it goes.

I do care about running things. It should be made impossible, and SF is just a small part of that, but at least it's a start.

I also care about how the game is played. Tanking is ridiculous but should still demand some skill. With SF you need almost no skill to tank, yet you are completely invulnerable.

Oh and, if they nerf SF, they need to really crush it. Not just make things take longer, but actually make it a worse choice. Otherwise nothing will change, things will be played the same way just slower and more boring.

Agree with the nerfing it to smithereens and nerf all those others that they brag about as another method of speed clearing. Just make the elite areas take at least 30 minutes solo or group I don't care but make it last a long time. Nerf them to hell and back. You can't do this crap in other games so it shouldn't be done in this one. No wonder so many like this game it's for lazy players who don't want to work or earn anything just a silver platter type game.

Martin Alvito · Oct 26, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The issue is that Grind Wars didn't happen because of God mode.
God mode was a RESPONSE to the decision to turn GuildW into GrindW. So even if you remove God mode, you will STILL be left with Grind Wars.

Look, nobody gets hurt by the existence of grind titles except the completionists. If ANet wants to market their game to the MMO crowd with a bunch of crummy grind titles I can't be bothered to complete, how does this harm me? But when ANet puts in a god mode, it does affect me directly. It's boring, and it devalues time spent playing the game to the point where the only sensible thing to do is stick your assets in rare minis and wait it out. The whole thing has made me a ton of in-game cash, but it isn't fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Bolded the important part. What happens if the bolded part is not done?
And considering the massive negative impact if this does not happen, shouldn't we demand this change BEFORE trashing SF?

Well, to be blunt about it, I don't care whether or not they do it. It's the obvious solution to the problem. But if you're posting on this board, what I'm suggesting won't affect you anyway. If you were going to do these quests, you already did them.

As for QueenofDeath's point, if these quests remain time inefficient, such that players could be farming other things more efficiently, there's little economic impact. You just want to make them more competitive with alternative uses of player time. That increases the level of available content that it's rational to play (there's a tradeoff between boredom and efficiency, so we don't have to bring these all the way up to the efficiency of farming).

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And it's exactly this reason why we should demand these additional tasks to be performed BEFORE the SF nerf - because if they do not happen, leaving SF IS the lesser evil.

You're missing the point. Nerfing SF only helps the competent players at the end of the day. It enables good players to separate, because god mode just makes bad players more able to compete via grind. Your pure noob is shafted whether we nerf SF or not, and nerfing it directly helps them. All you're doing by buffing quests is trying to make up somewhat for a year of sticking it to them. If everyone's in UW, the stuff they want (runes, mats, common weapons) gets comparatively expensive because they don't get farmed and the stuff they don't want (ectos) gets cheap.

HuntMaster Avatar · Oct 26, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Nerfing SF won't change a thing. It will result in one less farm build and nothing else. Enough high end loot has been saved to be sold in the future that you are only helping the SF sin's make more money. Plus, item prices won't change for a very long time since so many people have stockpiled high end loot.

Besides, it doesn't really matter. By the time high end prices go back up, gw2 will be out and selling that junk off won't be as easy as it is now. Its the same with "fixing" the game (even though thats impossible), by the time the game is "fixed" in ways people want, gw2 will be out and only a small portion will remain on gw1.

Then the people who just bought the game recently or those who just enjoy the game will have a harder time finding groups and almost no one will be able to do the high end areas, so anet will have to once again "fix" the game so those areas are possible to complete.

As I said many times, nerfing SF and/or other easymode builds won't change a thing, as we will discover when they nerf SF.

Martin Alvito · Oct 26, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

If the godmode build is nerfed fast enough, doing this prevents undesirable changes from occurring. You are correct to assert that by the time anything was done to Ursan or would be done to SF, it was too late to broadly affect item prices. The trader makes it extremely difficult to move the prices of items like ectos once you get enough of them floating around, and we passed that threshold years ago.

High end areas won't be impossible to do. It'll take longer.

The "Don't nerf SF" arguments that claim that places like UW will be ghost towns always boil down to, "Please don't take my revenue stream away". If you really liked playing the content, you'd still play it if the returns on time investment decreased. So if you tell me that "no one will play it", that reveals that your preferences are such that you will stop playing the content. People will still do it, and the volume of people that do it will depend upon the harshness of the nerf, the availability of good substitutes, and the difficulty level.

Don't bother pointing out that DoA is a ghost town post-Ursan. It proves nothing. If money-motivated players sucked less, they'd be there, because it's more efficient given good play. It's not that people won't take on the challenge. It's that they don't have to right now. The rewards of UW are high enough that people can justify laziness to themselves.

You got 18 months out of your broken build. That's at least seventeen months too long, in my book. It's poor game design, and we shouldn't stand for it.

T1Cybernetic · Oct 26, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

In a word, NO!

It won't make a dam bit of difference because like already stated before people will just go to the other farming builds of old times and old e/w & w/e tanking builds etc!

People will moan and cry a lot but in the end it will make (0) difference...

noneedforclevernames · Oct 26, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

It should be nerfed in dungeon running, but all the farmers with SF amuse me, since farming with SF is one of the worst ways to make income possible.

reaper with no name · Oct 26, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Nerfing SF will mean that there will actually be a purpose to running builds and professions besides SF. So, yes, I'd say that nerfing it will help the game. Because frankly, just about everything else might as well be a mending wammo. You might be able to get by with it, but that doesn't make it worth playing.

lilDeath · Oct 26, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Economy will adjust if SF gets nerfed, and so will the builds.

Cuilan · Oct 26, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Then the people who [...] just enjoy the game will have a harder time finding groups and almost no one will be able to do the high end areas

Really? How?

Dusk_ · Oct 27, 2009, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

...because they would be able to do it and enjoy it at the same time.

SF is nerfed, here comes speed clear build #387, except it takes 10 minutes longer and is slightly harder to do properly.

End result:

1) 'Normal' players still don't get to play.
2) Speed clears take longer.

And in the worst case scenario:

3) New speed clear needs a lot more skill, so newbies get excluded for not knowing how to do it properly.

So, remind me again how nerfing SF is supposed to help normal players?

There is only two ways that your precious Balancedway will ever see use in Elite Areas: you join a casual Guild, or Elite areas get nerfed so hard that PuGways are actually viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Nerfing SF will mean that there will actually be a purpose to running builds and professions besides SF. So, yes, I'd say that nerfing it will help the game. Because frankly, just about everything else might as well be a mending wammo. You might be able to get by with it, but that doesn't make it worth playing.

Wow, I didn't realize that Guild Wars was actually just called The Underworld. I mean, who would've known that Shadow Formers see absolutely no use outside of speed clears and dungeon running?

I said it before and I'll say it again: As long as the profitable areas are farmable/runnable, your Balancedway builds will be laughed at. Always. As long as there is a reason for people to farm those areas repeatedly and quickly, your random builds will always be excluded.

Pleikki · Oct 27, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

And in the worst case scenario:

3) New speed clear needs a lot more skill, so newbies get excluded for not knowing how to do it properly.

this would be imo real good opinion tbh. so newbies would make some build on their own. which they can run. might take longer. but still will be able do it. also some other ppl then newbies probably would run it.

it would stable economy imo a little bit as it was harder do it. but still doable.

S_Serpent · Oct 27, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If the godmode build is nerfed fast enough, doing this prevents undesirable changes from occurring. You are correct to assert that by the time anything was done to Ursan or would be done to SF, it was too late to broadly affect item prices. The trader makes it extremely difficult to move the prices of items like ectos once you get enough of them floating around, and we passed that threshold years ago.

High end areas won't be impossible to do. It'll take longer.

The "Don't nerf SF" arguments that claim that places like UW will be ghost towns always boil down to, "Please don't take my revenue stream away". If you really liked playing the content, you'd still play it if the returns on time investment decreased. So if you tell me that "no one will play it", that reveals that your preferences are such that you will stop playing the content. People will still do it, and the volume of people that do it will depend upon the harshness of the nerf, the availability of good substitutes, and the difficulty level.

Don't bother pointing out that DoA is a ghost town post-Ursan. It proves nothing. If money-motivated players sucked less, they'd be there, because it's more efficient given good play. It's not that people won't take on the challenge. It's that they don't have to right now. The rewards of UW are high enough that people can justify laziness to themselves.

You got 18 months out of your broken build. That's at least seventeen months too long, in my book. It's poor game design, and we shouldn't stand for it.

This makes me laugh, if doa didn't proof anything then why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO has it turned into a ghosttown! The rewards are way to low already so why the hell do you all want an economy where everything will be even more out of the question to attain! Grind Wars is bad as it is already, I don't want a GRIND Grind Wars!

And in the near future I see the whiners still whine because there is nobody left to even have a chance at playing the elite area's or dungeons.

"pllzzz a.net get more people to make babies so that we can play pugwise again a ten years or so, so my uw clearances doesn't take 3 months to complete"

a.net wants to keep as much playstyles happy! So stop whining and life with the fact that your just 0.00001% of the playerbase

toocooltang · Oct 27, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

If you really thing DOA is impossible without SF or ursan, you clearly need to go read wiki. While you are on wiki there are several builds that will tell you how to complete DOA without either of the previously stated skills. DOA is dead for pugs, if you want to do DOA there are many guilds that specialize in DOA(meaning they know the area, not that they read the wiki build and just roll there faces on the keybaord). These guilds currenly use SF because it is the best option for speed and easy of use, but they will quickly adapt once the nerf happens.

If you think you can't do dungeons without SF, wow. You just proved the reason SF needs to be nerfed is because it has made this entire segment of the community that has no idea what fainthartness does or why soothing images is bad on a warrior. There isnt a single dungeon out there that can be 2man/6hero'd easily with if the players plan ahead and know what they are doing. Most dungeons take less than an hour to complete with out SF.

I know the counter arguement is well I don't have time to play the game so SF allows me to run past all the mobs and blah blah blah. Really? Ever tried pugging and UWSC, well its not a SC when you have to use a BU 70% of the time(that means it takes over 30mins, and not that much faster than non SF UW). Also all the 1337 pwnage SC builds out there are heavily dependant on PVE skills. That means it mike take you 15 minutes to clear SoO but you still have to spend about 50 hours grinding out EOTN HM hero handbooks to max all those PVE skills. Of course if you don't think you need max titles to play your bar to its best capablities then you are bad. Like I have also said, SF makes bad players good, poor players richer. It also makes good players into amazing players and rich players even richer.